At a party once, I had to practically fight off a drunk girl. She was belligerent and obnoxious and aggressively trying to have sex with me. It took me and her sister to put her to bed and of course as soon as she lay still for 30 seconds, she was unconscious.
Some men have told me I was crazy to pass up the “opportunity”. And some women have told me that I was a “gentleman” for doing so. Which also implies that indulging in a helpless girl would have been acceptable, but I went above and beyond somehow. What I did wasn’t noble or heroic. It was basic decency; the least I could do. It’s literally a legal requirement.
I don’t know why men are so awful sometimes. But I think a big part of the problem is that taking advantage of women is normal and accepted. High profile cases like Brand, Weinstein, Stawell, Tate, and Masterson are good because it pushes sexual ethics into mainstream pop culture. And we need that because too many are ignorant.
If the genders were flipped here the person aggressively trying to have sex would be called a rapist… I’m not trying to have an argument about nuance, only pointing out that society defaults to a woman being a potential victim in the exact situation they would label a man a predator. The irony being if you “went along with it”, even if you did not necessarily want to, you would then be labeled the rapist. So a man on either side of this situation is a rapist if sex happens and the woman is under all circumstances the victim.
I’ve had a similar experience. In my early adulthood, I fell hard for a girl at my school. She liked me back and we flirted for months.
Eventually, things escalate at a party and she ends up coming back with me to my dorm room. She crawls into my bed next to me and immediately pretends to fall asleep.
I’m young, inexperienced and nervous and not really sure what I’m supposed to do in that situation. So I end up laying there pretending to sleep as well. After a couple hours she gets up and leaves without a word or acknowledgement.
And thus that fling came to an end. I was devastated and confused. I asked her friends what went wrong and apparently the expectation was that I was supposed to make a move on her while she was “sleeping” and the fact that I didn’t signaled that I wasn’t interested. She took it as a rejection and left with hurt feelings.
We were young and dumb and as far as I’m concerned I did the right thing. I only wish I had the brains and maturity to communicate my feelings better at the time. But it’s always struck me as weird that in that moment I was “supposed” to do what essentially amounts to sexual assault.
That was wierd that she just expected that. You didn’t do anything wrong. Maybe say something as she was leaving but other than that she shouldn’t have just expected you to take advantage of her.
Some men have told me I was crazy to pass up the “opportunity”. And some women have told me that I was a “gentleman” for doing so.
I don’t know why men are so awful sometimes. But I think a big part of the problem is that taking advantage of women is normal and accepted.
The term “rape culture” is often misunderstood, lampooned, etc. but that’s a really good distillation of it. SA is not “encouraged” in a legal sense, it’s punished, but there is a cultural expectation of men to be uncontrollably sexually aggressive while women are supposed to “defend their virtue”.
If men aren’t sufficiently sexually assertive, they are often seen as less masculine. This isn’t always the case - it can support the conception of masculinity as being chivalrous. But can also be viewed as being more passive, less virile, less strong, etc.
If women are perceived not successfully “defending their virtue”, it’s seen as a failure on their part except sometimes in extreme cases of sexual violence if seen as being “unprovoked”. Hence the “look what she was wearing”, “asking for it”, etc. etc. tropes. These are often less overt now, which causes people to overlook the extent to which they blame women for being victims of SA.
I think the points you are making here are ones people miss. The societal perception that women should control sex creates the whole situation. In a way, women are expected to mask their desire for sex everywhere except the bedroom. Sadly, the western world is the progressive group on this. The rules on what women can wear in other countries doubles down on the masking. And we know how well that works for the women…
But have do we move forward on eliminating the source of the issue. I just don’t know. The system just treatments the symptoms with laws.
It makes women adversaries instead of partners. It emboldens predators and removes people’s agency. Things like rape make certain people feel more powerful.
The problem is a lack of access to basic resources, resulting in lower education and thus more tribalism. A few of us are amplifying that because we’ve let that be profitable.
I think it’s a vicious cycle there more than one creating the whole situation. The expectation that men will be sexually aggressive encourages women to be sexually defensive which includes masking desire which leaves much more room for men to be encouraged to be sexually aggressive.
The ultimate solution is to work on both at the same time. We need to continue the push for sexual liberation, which includes encouraging women to be open about desires and to make moves, but is ultimately the process of getting men/women to move from an aggressive/defensive approach to sex to both having an egalitarian and cooperative approach
At least that’s my outsiders perspective, I’m a lesbian who never dated men, so grain of salt and whatnot
It’s more or less spot on, from what I’ve seen, and it makes perfect sense. You don’t get a system to last centuries without making it thoroughly self-reinforcing. And it’s precisely what makes the outside perspectives valuable: it’s hard for a fish to see water unless you take it out of it. Otherwise you just end up turning “boys will be boys” into “yes all men”.
In addition to all that, I find it highly ironic that women are expected to be beautiful and sexy and present themselves to men for our gaze, meaning that we men are expected to try to take advantage while the women are expected to stop us.
I remember being confused about why “slut” was an insult as a teen. My line of thought, as someone that wanted to have sex with women, was that women that liked sex sounded more fun.
I understand now it’s insecurity. Guys feeling threatened by a woman having experience with other guys because they know they don’t put much effort in to even understanding how to pleasure a woman but want to assume they are amazing in bed anyways. Insecurity on its own is ok, but the way they handle it is fucking pathetic.
It’s the same mindset that gives them an ego boost from cheating but then getting paranoid or even outraged when they realize their partner could be doing the same to them. It’s hilarious sometimes watching cheaters react to actually getting cheated on, too.
It is a completely toxic and stupid culture, and those who fight for even LESS education on the matter just make it worse. Ignorance isn’t even bliss. lol
Every woman I am friends with have all told me that the bar for men is on the fucking ground and they still find a way to get under it. The reason why men are awful is because of the privilege that the patriarchy gives men. As a man, you have to actively reject that privilege.
I found this out when I was looking for resources on how to support a pregnant partner. Most of the stuff I found just said “listen to her and do at least some of the stuff she asks you to do”, which I thought was the bare minimum. Then I found articles that also said “don’t force yourself on her” and “be patient when she has mood swings, don’t beat her”, and I realized where the bar actually might be.
The whole PUA culture from like 2012-2016 was basically built around people like brand. People would invent entire personalities just to score. At that point surely just pay for it? I guess their egos can’t handle it.
Oh, please. Not all men are club-carrying priapic Neanderthals oozing testosterone with 5000 lumen 100W lit codpiece bait intended to lure every female within eyesight for a quick fuck. Women most certainly can sexually harass men.
The situation you are describing is absolutely dangerous for everyone involved.
Dangerous for the unconscious and vulnerable girl who could be taken advantage of … and dangerous for the sober (or at least conscious) male who is involved in the situation.
I’m a single older man and I live in practical fear of being alone with a woman, especially younger women. I don’t want to do anything to anyone nor do I have the desire to do so … but if I’m ever caught alone with someone in a compromising situation, all it would take would be a rumor or accusation and my reputation is done for. It’s not the fault of the victims, its the fault of society where everyone is in constant fear and in a constant search for victims and predators.
This isn’t a denial that terrible things and terrible people exist or that people can be victimized, it’s just that the level of trust in the world is eroded and sometimes, all you have to do is be in the wrong place at the wrong time and your social life is destroyed by the fears and anxieties of society.
This is the reason why I absolutely avoid drinking parties and bars … I’m over 30 years sober and actively avoid any people that want to get drunk or stoned. There are far too many situations where people can be victimized in drunken events … as well as too many opportunities for people to be falsely accused. Stay safe out there.
At a party once, I had to practically fight off a drunk girl. She was belligerent and obnoxious and aggressively trying to have sex with me. It took me and her sister to put her to bed and of course as soon as she lay still for 30 seconds, she was unconscious.
Some men have told me I was crazy to pass up the “opportunity”. And some women have told me that I was a “gentleman” for doing so. Which also implies that indulging in a helpless girl would have been acceptable, but I went above and beyond somehow. What I did wasn’t noble or heroic. It was basic decency; the least I could do. It’s literally a legal requirement.
I don’t know why men are so awful sometimes. But I think a big part of the problem is that taking advantage of women is normal and accepted. High profile cases like Brand, Weinstein, Stawell, Tate, and Masterson are good because it pushes sexual ethics into mainstream pop culture. And we need that because too many are ignorant.
If the genders were flipped here the person aggressively trying to have sex would be called a rapist… I’m not trying to have an argument about nuance, only pointing out that society defaults to a woman being a potential victim in the exact situation they would label a man a predator. The irony being if you “went along with it”, even if you did not necessarily want to, you would then be labeled the rapist. So a man on either side of this situation is a rapist if sex happens and the woman is under all circumstances the victim.
I did think that’s where it was heading when I read “aggressively trying to have sex with me”.
Thank you for your comment. You literally made me cry. You are right.
e: not sure what I said wrong. I was being genuine.
I’ve had a similar experience. In my early adulthood, I fell hard for a girl at my school. She liked me back and we flirted for months.
Eventually, things escalate at a party and she ends up coming back with me to my dorm room. She crawls into my bed next to me and immediately pretends to fall asleep.
I’m young, inexperienced and nervous and not really sure what I’m supposed to do in that situation. So I end up laying there pretending to sleep as well. After a couple hours she gets up and leaves without a word or acknowledgement.
And thus that fling came to an end. I was devastated and confused. I asked her friends what went wrong and apparently the expectation was that I was supposed to make a move on her while she was “sleeping” and the fact that I didn’t signaled that I wasn’t interested. She took it as a rejection and left with hurt feelings.
We were young and dumb and as far as I’m concerned I did the right thing. I only wish I had the brains and maturity to communicate my feelings better at the time. But it’s always struck me as weird that in that moment I was “supposed” to do what essentially amounts to sexual assault.
That was wierd that she just expected that. You didn’t do anything wrong. Maybe say something as she was leaving but other than that she shouldn’t have just expected you to take advantage of her.
The term “rape culture” is often misunderstood, lampooned, etc. but that’s a really good distillation of it. SA is not “encouraged” in a legal sense, it’s punished, but there is a cultural expectation of men to be uncontrollably sexually aggressive while women are supposed to “defend their virtue”.
If men aren’t sufficiently sexually assertive, they are often seen as less masculine. This isn’t always the case - it can support the conception of masculinity as being chivalrous. But can also be viewed as being more passive, less virile, less strong, etc.
If women are perceived not successfully “defending their virtue”, it’s seen as a failure on their part except sometimes in extreme cases of sexual violence if seen as being “unprovoked”. Hence the “look what she was wearing”, “asking for it”, etc. etc. tropes. These are often less overt now, which causes people to overlook the extent to which they blame women for being victims of SA.
Rape culture - it’s defo a thing and that’s it.
I think the points you are making here are ones people miss. The societal perception that women should control sex creates the whole situation. In a way, women are expected to mask their desire for sex everywhere except the bedroom. Sadly, the western world is the progressive group on this. The rules on what women can wear in other countries doubles down on the masking. And we know how well that works for the women…
But have do we move forward on eliminating the source of the issue. I just don’t know. The system just treatments the symptoms with laws.
It makes women adversaries instead of partners. It emboldens predators and removes people’s agency. Things like rape make certain people feel more powerful.
The problem is a lack of access to basic resources, resulting in lower education and thus more tribalism. A few of us are amplifying that because we’ve let that be profitable.
That’s what needs fixing.
I think it’s a vicious cycle there more than one creating the whole situation. The expectation that men will be sexually aggressive encourages women to be sexually defensive which includes masking desire which leaves much more room for men to be encouraged to be sexually aggressive.
The ultimate solution is to work on both at the same time. We need to continue the push for sexual liberation, which includes encouraging women to be open about desires and to make moves, but is ultimately the process of getting men/women to move from an aggressive/defensive approach to sex to both having an egalitarian and cooperative approach
At least that’s my outsiders perspective, I’m a lesbian who never dated men, so grain of salt and whatnot
It’s more or less spot on, from what I’ve seen, and it makes perfect sense. You don’t get a system to last centuries without making it thoroughly self-reinforcing. And it’s precisely what makes the outside perspectives valuable: it’s hard for a fish to see water unless you take it out of it. Otherwise you just end up turning “boys will be boys” into “yes all men”.
In addition to all that, I find it highly ironic that women are expected to be beautiful and sexy and present themselves to men for our gaze, meaning that we men are expected to try to take advantage while the women are expected to stop us.
I remember being confused about why “slut” was an insult as a teen. My line of thought, as someone that wanted to have sex with women, was that women that liked sex sounded more fun.
I understand now it’s insecurity. Guys feeling threatened by a woman having experience with other guys because they know they don’t put much effort in to even understanding how to pleasure a woman but want to assume they are amazing in bed anyways. Insecurity on its own is ok, but the way they handle it is fucking pathetic.
It’s the same mindset that gives them an ego boost from cheating but then getting paranoid or even outraged when they realize their partner could be doing the same to them. It’s hilarious sometimes watching cheaters react to actually getting cheated on, too.
But I digress.
It is a completely toxic and stupid culture, and those who fight for even LESS education on the matter just make it worse. Ignorance isn’t even bliss. lol
I’d argue that pedo culture is pretty widespread as well.
Every woman I am friends with have all told me that the bar for men is on the fucking ground and they still find a way to get under it.
The reason why men are awful is because of the privilege that the patriarchy gives men. As a man, you have to actively reject that privilege.
If you don’t, you end up like Brand, Weinstein, Stawell, Tate, and Masterson.
I found this out when I was looking for resources on how to support a pregnant partner. Most of the stuff I found just said “listen to her and do at least some of the stuff she asks you to do”, which I thought was the bare minimum. Then I found articles that also said “don’t force yourself on her” and “be patient when she has mood swings, don’t beat her”, and I realized where the bar actually might be.
2013 called and it wants to hear your opinion.
Without details, I’m just back here screaming “Good god, get yourself out of emotionally unsafe situations!” Someone tried to assault you.
The whole PUA culture from like 2012-2016 was basically built around people like brand. People would invent entire personalities just to score. At that point surely just pay for it? I guess their egos can’t handle it.
That wouldn’t be considered harassment on her part?
Your point isn’t lost on me, but…
Women can’t sexually harass men! They’re only coming on to them, which any man obviously desires!
Oh, please. Not all men are club-carrying priapic Neanderthals oozing testosterone with 5000 lumen 100W lit codpiece bait intended to lure every female within eyesight for a quick fuck. Women most certainly can sexually harass men.
I didn’t use enough exclamation points!!!
You should probably have a serious talk about the nature and effects of rape with those men. Someone needs to intervene with people like that.
deleted by creator
The situation you are describing is absolutely dangerous for everyone involved.
Dangerous for the unconscious and vulnerable girl who could be taken advantage of … and dangerous for the sober (or at least conscious) male who is involved in the situation.
I’m a single older man and I live in practical fear of being alone with a woman, especially younger women. I don’t want to do anything to anyone nor do I have the desire to do so … but if I’m ever caught alone with someone in a compromising situation, all it would take would be a rumor or accusation and my reputation is done for. It’s not the fault of the victims, its the fault of society where everyone is in constant fear and in a constant search for victims and predators.
This isn’t a denial that terrible things and terrible people exist or that people can be victimized, it’s just that the level of trust in the world is eroded and sometimes, all you have to do is be in the wrong place at the wrong time and your social life is destroyed by the fears and anxieties of society.
This is the reason why I absolutely avoid drinking parties and bars … I’m over 30 years sober and actively avoid any people that want to get drunk or stoned. There are far too many situations where people can be victimized in drunken events … as well as too many opportunities for people to be falsely accused. Stay safe out there.