Hi all, a couple of years back I moved to Proton on a 2 year plan. Then the CEO started spouting Trump stuff. I cancelled at the time but the subscription is only now up for renewal.
I have moved everything across to Tuta recently, but I don’t like it, so I’m looking for further suggestions.
Why didn’t Tuta work for me?
- No function to auto-forward emails to another email address.
- No bridge or IMAP so I can’t connect to Paperless
- Mobile app is janky - when I swipe to archive, it sort of sits there for a while as it talks to the server. And just generally it feels slow like it’s waiting for the server for every action instead of backgrounding the requests.
- Web app is weird. It doesn’t even have an archive button, I have to use “Move -> Archive” making it slow to go through my inbox.
- Importing emails is only available on their most expensive plan. Weird to not want people to move to your platform? (it also couldn’t handle 15000 emails, I had to load them 1000 at a time)
Things I want:
- Must support custom domain
- Must support catchall
- Must support forwarding an email to another email address based on the “to” address
- Must not be run by dicks (e.g. Trump supporting CEO or Proton, union busting like Fastmail, and no big tech) - as close as possible at least
- Should have some method to connect to my self-hosted Paperless NGX (e.g. Proton’s bridge, or just IMAP)
- Should have emails encrypted from provider if possible - not sure if anyone other than Proton or Tuta do this.
- Should support GPG
- Should allow importing email history from previous provider
- Should have a nice web/mobile app or allow IMAP. Bonus points if I don’t have to use the Play store.
Honestly I’d put up with the janky app if Tuta had the functions I want, I mostly just want my money going to some provider that aren’t dicks, but having the provider not be able to read my emails would be a bonus.
Anyone got suggestions for me?
I don’t see many other people talking about it, but I personally use Zoho for my email with a custom domain and I really like how it works.
TIL Zoho is still around.
Thanks for the suggestion. Is it Zoho.com, who’s home page advertises their vibe coding stack?
I’ve considered startmail. Despite a lot of talk about them being owned by System1 they still rate relatively high on various ratings.
I still haven’t made up my own mind yet though, and for me I have until March to decide…
Thanks for the suggestion! I feel like I’m gonna have to sign up to everything to see if they support forwarding emails to another address as no one seems to list it in their features 🥲
For forwarding, would addy.io work for your use? They have a decent free tier
Nah what I need is for specific addresses on my custom domain to be forwarded. E.g. my wife uses big tech email but has used addresses on my domain at times, and these need to be forwarded to her if used.
It’s a different use case than relay email, which is also something I heavily use.
Saw this post at the perfect time, was looking for a new mail provider this week!
I think a lot of us are 😂
I think Fastmail is significantly more functional and easier to use than mailbox.org and more trustworthy than Proton.
This article mentions how Fastmail laid off most of the group of their staff trying to form a union…
Well, fuck.
It’s been working great for me!
*it being Fastmail
I had nonstop trouble with mailbox.org. I really wanted it to work, but OP and I had similar requirements and no amount of effort or trying to get help from them resulted in success. So, I had to leave, having already paid for years in advance.
Their support was effectively nonexistent and their technical offering was overstated. But, everyone has different requirements, so I’m sure they’re great for some people. I just cannot recommend mailbox.org, though.
Sorry, let me rephrase, Fastmail has been working great for me.
Oh! Thank you for the clarification! 😆
I use mailbox.org and this is my experience with your points:
- Must support custom domain
It generally does, the number of adresses ist still limeted though (exact number depends on the plan, standard plan is something like 50)
- Must support catchall
It does, counts as one address only
- Must support forwarding an email to another email address based on the “to” address
You can add rules based on many factors, including to address (partial or full matching). The interface for those is a bit clunky but once you got them set up they work reliably. I use them to sort mails into fders based on to-addresses.
- Must not be run by dicks (e.g. Trump supporting CEO or Proton, union busting like Fastmail, and no big tech) - as close as possible at least
I do not know anything about that but have also not actively loomed into it. they are run by a medium-sized German company called Heinelin.
- Should have some method to connect to my self-hosted Paperless NGX (e.g. Proton’s bridge, or just IMAP)
You get IMAP.
- Should have emails encrypted from provider if possible - not sure if anyone other than Proton or Tuta do this.
You can set upload a public key to be used to encrypt your entire mailbox and incoming mail on arrival if you want (Mailbox Guard)
- Should support GPG
Server-side and webmailer only do pgp, but it’s e-Mail, so just use gpg in your e-Mail program?
- Should allow importing email history from previous provider
They allow for that using a partner company, but I have never tried that and can not tell you how well it works.
- Should have a nice web/mobile app or allow IMAP. Bonus points if I don’t have to use the Play store.
Imap, no official app for mail
Thanks for the detailed response!
You can add rules based on many factors, including to address (partial or full matching). The interface for those is a bit clunky but once you got them set up they work reliably. I use them to sort mails into fders based on to-addresses.
Tuta support rules to folders but not to forward to another email address, which is where if fell down. You seem to only mention sorting to folders but given how you seem to imply an advanced interface I’m hoping that means it’s supported.
Server-side and webmailer only do pgp, but it’s e-Mail, so just use gpg in your e-Mail program?
Yeah GPG in email program is fine, so long as you can use an email program (e.g. Proton/Tuta you can’t use IMAP you have to use their app because of custom encryption implementation - though Proton does have a bridge if you want to use IMAP on desktop).
Lots of votes for Mailbox.org in the responses (though some votes of no confidence). Still on the list of possibles though, thanks for the info 🙂
I haven’t seen much about it, but I’m trying out Atomic Mail and it’s been pretty good so far. Would be curious on others’ thoughts though.
Hmm it only started in 2024 so not much history, and they seem to have many AI features. Without more info I’d be a bit worried it was vibe coded given the timeline, push for AI, and that they don’t seem to be a known company who could have invested in it.
I think in the end, I’m going to keep my Proton (9 months left), and here’s why:
I’m not thinking of it as supporting a bad CEO, I’m supporting the employees who work there and actually care about the work they’re doing. I don’t want Proton going the way of Microsoft where they’re trying to buy out of let go of 25% of their staff as they shudder customers.
I’ve steered so many friend and family towards Proton, it’s “mainstream” enough to help them feel comfortable to switch, and they’ve already demonstrated they dgaf about leadership since they use social media. Plus, how can I recommend Proton ifI, myself, don’t use it?
A bad CEO/leadership can be replaced, good employees with great products shouldn’t be punished in this way.
Depends who owns the majority voting shares in the company, does the employees own more voting shares than the ceo? it’s often not the case and the CEO has majority, so the company is the CEO.
With Proton, my understanding is their Proton Foundation nonprofit is the biggest shareholder, so they can keep control of things and there’s no risk of a buyout option.
Board of Trustees Dr. Andy Yen
Bad arguments. I also won’t buy a Tesla just because good people work there.
I think you have fallen to the sunk cost fallacy as in you have recommended it to so many people that now you can’t move away.
If the product isn’t any good, the money is flowing to a dickhead and people are let go anyway (if they don’t replace themselves with AI), then there is no valid reason to keep paying for this product.
Also it’s a swiss company, which is problematic for so many reasons.Tbf, good people don’t work at Tesla.
Also it’s a swiss company, which is problematic for so many reasons.
What?! Why would this be a big problem??
Also, while I like getting into self-hosting and have several services running at home, I can’t quite justify (yet) switching away. These programs just work, and work well. Email would be the hardest thing too replace since I have custom domains, plus numerous aliases setup. That’s sometimes hard to supplement with another service and keep encryption.
Yes, people might get let go, I understand that. It is unfortunate. I’m hoping this is a wakeup call to leadership. Good point on the Tesla thing. The difference is I don’t care for Tesla, Elon, etc. I also don’t recommend them. But everyone is aware of how bad Elon is, Yen is nothing in comparison.
And, are we just supposed to jump ship for a product anytime someone from a company seems to offend someone else? I’m generalizing here, but, honestly idgaf if he’s a Trump supporter. I’m also not going to whine about someone’s views and upset my own life style because if what they say. People are allowed to have their own political views and opinions, as long as they don’t pour over into the products or jeopardize them in any way. Tesla, in that sense, is that extreme. $700m in donations to the Republican party to try and alter outcomes… Yen is a saint by comparison.
Now, the use odd AI to enshittify, if QC starts plummeting, like Windows has, or values change, or data is collected and sold, etc, that’s a different story. They’re a for-profit company but owned by a majority shareholder which is the non-profit so they keep to their values, and governed by Swiss law is far better than anything US-based!
My arguments still stand.
Have you looked at mailbox.org? I’m still researching where to go from Proton myself
I have seen it mentioned but went with Tuta because of the E2EE. But as it turns out it’s only for Tuta to Tuta emails.
I think Mailbox.org is looking like something I should look into further.
Just fyi - afaik with Proton it is also only Proton to Proton emails that are automatically e2e encrypted.
Both providers have an option to encrypt other outgoing emails, but the reader needs to enter a password which is a hassle and “nobody” seems to use those options.
The difference is Proton supports pgp, tuta doesn’t. Proton also has it’s IMAP Bridge, while tuta doesn’t support it at all.
Proton is trying to be a walled garden, but tuta is on another level.
I am also researching where to go, I have looked at mailbox.org and signed up for the trial to give it a go but everything on there seems really convoluted.
Like I want to add a custom domain, I have no idea what I’m really doing with it all but tuta laid it all out nice and easily for me.
I can’t even find the fucking custom domain area / settings on mailbox. Shit like this pushes potential users away. I dont know much about email and I dont want to learn, just tell me what I need to do to use your service damn it!
The interface is clunky, but they have a fairly decent documentation which is worth giving a try.
Current mailbox.org user for my side accounts, it’s ok, a bit clunky, but reliable & decently priced overall, but it hasn’t sold me enough to move my main account. I also slightly worry about where German politics is potentially headed & what that may mean for it in the long run.
I was considering Proton for a while, but can’t on moral grounds. Tuta sounded like a possibility but I keep seeing mentions of small issues & quirks like you’ve flagged.
The only other main one on my radar currently (that’s not US based) is Infomaniak ksuite, but the package & pricing options are a bit of a confusing mess. I think you need a pro account for a custom domain, & aliases seem a bit limited, but otherwise it’s sounding fairly good, I haven’t seen it mentioned here much but have on the site that shall not be named in amongst the usual suspects. Anyone here use/used it?
I use both mailbox.org and migadu.com
As you mention custom domains, Migadu might be better for you. You can manage multiple domains and an almost infinite number of aliases.
It’s a very “straight to the point” tool, but it works really well and I like that they focus on one thing and do it well.
Mailbox.org is good too but more of a traditional email provider
If I understand correctly, IMAP and email encryption are incompatible, so it’s one or the other. That’s why Proton needs Bridge in the first place.
Listening to people’s suggestions, too.
I thought that at first, but then Tuta to Tuta emails are the only ones encrypted. Where as you can put GPG in your email client for IMAP and encrypt email to anyone that has GPG in theirs, regardless of their email inbox. Tuta doesn’t seem to support that and the number of emails going to Tuta are likely almost zero for me. So I’m happy with a provider that supports GPG/PGP if they support IMAP for the E2EE available with GPG.
Proton has better support, with Proton to Proton encryption plus they support PGP to some extent as well. My experience with Tuta shows me that Proton are definitely further along in features.
I’d also recommend mailbox.org. I’m not sure if it addresses everything you listed out, but here’s what I know:
- Allows custom domain (except for basic plan)
- Supports GPG
- Supports the same encryption processes as Proton iirc
- Not run by dicks (as far as I’m aware)
- Allows alternative email managers like Thunderbird. Haven’t personally tried their specific app
Supports the same encryption processes as Proton iirc
Proton and Tuta encrypt everything in the client so they have zero knowledge of the emails in your inbox, and because of this you can’t use standard email clients. So anything that allows a standard client isn’t up to the same standard.
But with that said, Mailbox seem to be explicitly no-US in their stack, and after all if 99% of emails are coming or going outside of the Proton/Tuta ecosystem then I’m not sure how helpful the extra encryption is. I’ll wait and see if anyone else has suggestions, and if not I might sign up for Mailbox for a month and see if it meets my needs. Thanks for the suggestion!
To be a bit more explicit, if Proton’s server receives an email that isn’t encrypted end-to-end (like the majority of emails aren’t), the receiving server in Proton’s infrastructure can read the contents of the email just fine.
They do encrypt the emails for storage / at rest then, but given that most email communication is with online services, businesses etc. that rarely support encryption, I always found the additional privacy claims questionable, as they are rarely applicable in practice.
Yeah but I guess they can at least claim they can’t access emails already received when the govt comes knocking? They would have to capture emails on receipt, and the govt probably just asks the sending company for it anyway.
Email is inherently not a privacy focused service. You’ll be hard pressed to find anything unless they’ve made it central to their business like Proton.
Well, if you do decide to try out mailbox.org, there’s another thing to note: their lowest price tier (1€/month) requires a yearly subscription. To do monthly it’s 4€/month
Thanks for the heads up. I would need the mid tier anyway as I will be using a custom domain and many of my needs are based around that.
Have you seen the thundermail announcement? Its not out but they are looking for feedback on features. I haven’t found anything I like and am about to self host it.
My assumption was that it would not have some of the features I want as a new service, but I’ll consider it once it launches.
I just moved to it, it’s got a few hiccups but I’m really liking it so far.
I’ve been self-hosting with no particular problems, but considering going for https://runbox.com/
Ticks all your boxes. No E2EE like Proton/Tuta, but the usefulness of E2EE like they do it is questionable. Likely 99,9% of mail has a the other end on a non-E2EE provider anyway.
You could get a cheap cloud Linux box and SSH in and run https://mailinabox.email/
Then point your domain name servers to it.
Then enjoy all the features on your list, plus your own DNS service.
It’s a nice thought but I don’t self-host communication. Communication needs the be highly available, and for my mental health, I need someone else to blame when it’s not working 😆
