I agree with you about the tolerance paradox. I am sure you’d also agree that we must decide when to apply it because not every disagreement is a tolerance paradox.
But now that we’ve named the tolerance paradox, now that it’s a meme we can just invoke on a dime, I find it gets used constantly. The word fascist is also everywhere now. Anything remotely draconian and you are a fascist and then a Nazi. The word Nazi gets thrown around very lightly around here. And the conversation slips very quickly from “don’t tolerate Nazis” to “it’s okay to punch them in the face” to “it’s a moral imperative to kill them.”
I think we should be extremely judicious about deciding it’s a moral imperative to kill anyone. And I don’t see that extreme judiciousness around Lemmy generally. This political party’s beliefs are repugnant. And I am not ready to call for the death of someone who gives them money.
I’m not saying I know exactly where to draw the line. But when I even try to engage people on where the line should be, I quickly find myself on the other side of it in their eyes. I’m an apologist, a collaborator, a fascist myself, and so on.
This climate overall is deeply uncomfortable for me and even worse is the lack of self reflection about it.
Maybe my problem is thinking that discussion actually matters and trying to fully engage the topic, when others are just here to talk big and pronounce death upon their perceived foes.
I get what you’re saying. However, we are dealing with rising actual, full fledged fascism on a world stage. And a common rebuttal from a fascist is that “everything I believe can’t be fascist” or “I’m not suddenly a fascist, what I believed yesterday wasn’t fascist.”
The truth of the matter is that fascism never truly left. The ultra-nationalism became more discreet and diffused with pride for one’s country. It eventually became unquestioning loyalty. See: American exceptionalism. Racial purity and bigotry was shamed on a larger scale, so fascists retreated to quieter spaces, but it never left. Through operation paperclip, America did the opposite and welcomed former Nazis and SS and allowed them to start families and provided them land (more than they did for African Americans, that’s for sure.) So is it any wonder that the Confederacy, which the Nazis admired and learned from, and the Nazis themselves, would lay low and eventually make a resurgence, as they are now?
All that to say, the tenant that I go by is what I said. If we have a disagreement, as another person said, about baking a cake, does that make someone a fascist? No, not unless that cake somehow is promoting some form of intolerance/harm/dehumanization of human life and identity (i.e. a Swastika cake probably won’t go over too well with the public, and you’d lose my business for sure.)
I think the ProtonVPN vs Mullvad recent issues are good to look at. Did the Proton CEO say some dumb stuff about Republican antitrusts? Yes. Did ProtonVPN provide an affiliate link to a French far right influencer? Yes. Do these actions make them fascist or fascist supporting? Probably not, that’s a bit of a stretch. The company also revoked the affiliate link and put out a statement that they do not share those individuals views. But we should still, and rightfully so, call them out and hold it to them that these are issues. They’re certainly warnings at minimum. And a CEO can be removed.
Mullvad’s founder has a lot more sway on the company’s path than a french youtuber. Mullvad’s founder isn’t just donating a small donation to the republican party either. He’s, essentially, funding an entire fringe alt right party on his own, one that is in support of ethnic cleansing. That means there is a very high likelihood that the founder shares these beliefs, and even if he doesn’t, by funding a party so aggressively, it provides them with an outsized voice amongst legislation and can lead to direct harm all by using money that you or I gave to them for a product where there are several other choices available to us. Does that make someone fascist, or at least aligned with fascism? Well, supporting a party that believes in ultra-nationalism with social and racial hierarchy/purity…I mean…I can’t honestly say it doesn’t.
So, is ProtonVPN fascist? No
Is ProtonVPNs CEO a fascist? I doubt it
Is MullvadVPN fascist? No, not yet at least
Is Mullvad’s founder a fascist? I’m leaning towards yes
Is the Örebro party fascist? Yes. By definition.
And similarly, just to help me ground the way you see things, could you point to a current day example of what you mean by “actual full blown fascism?”
I agree with you about the tolerance paradox. I am sure you’d also agree that we must decide when to apply it because not every disagreement is a tolerance paradox.
But now that we’ve named the tolerance paradox, now that it’s a meme we can just invoke on a dime, I find it gets used constantly. The word fascist is also everywhere now. Anything remotely draconian and you are a fascist and then a Nazi. The word Nazi gets thrown around very lightly around here. And the conversation slips very quickly from “don’t tolerate Nazis” to “it’s okay to punch them in the face” to “it’s a moral imperative to kill them.”
I think we should be extremely judicious about deciding it’s a moral imperative to kill anyone. And I don’t see that extreme judiciousness around Lemmy generally. This political party’s beliefs are repugnant. And I am not ready to call for the death of someone who gives them money.
I’m not saying I know exactly where to draw the line. But when I even try to engage people on where the line should be, I quickly find myself on the other side of it in their eyes. I’m an apologist, a collaborator, a fascist myself, and so on.
This climate overall is deeply uncomfortable for me and even worse is the lack of self reflection about it.
Maybe my problem is thinking that discussion actually matters and trying to fully engage the topic, when others are just here to talk big and pronounce death upon their perceived foes.
I get what you’re saying. However, we are dealing with rising actual, full fledged fascism on a world stage. And a common rebuttal from a fascist is that “everything I believe can’t be fascist” or “I’m not suddenly a fascist, what I believed yesterday wasn’t fascist.”
The truth of the matter is that fascism never truly left. The ultra-nationalism became more discreet and diffused with pride for one’s country. It eventually became unquestioning loyalty. See: American exceptionalism. Racial purity and bigotry was shamed on a larger scale, so fascists retreated to quieter spaces, but it never left. Through operation paperclip, America did the opposite and welcomed former Nazis and SS and allowed them to start families and provided them land (more than they did for African Americans, that’s for sure.) So is it any wonder that the Confederacy, which the Nazis admired and learned from, and the Nazis themselves, would lay low and eventually make a resurgence, as they are now?
All that to say, the tenant that I go by is what I said. If we have a disagreement, as another person said, about baking a cake, does that make someone a fascist? No, not unless that cake somehow is promoting some form of intolerance/harm/dehumanization of human life and identity (i.e. a Swastika cake probably won’t go over too well with the public, and you’d lose my business for sure.)
I think the ProtonVPN vs Mullvad recent issues are good to look at. Did the Proton CEO say some dumb stuff about Republican antitrusts? Yes. Did ProtonVPN provide an affiliate link to a French far right influencer? Yes. Do these actions make them fascist or fascist supporting? Probably not, that’s a bit of a stretch. The company also revoked the affiliate link and put out a statement that they do not share those individuals views. But we should still, and rightfully so, call them out and hold it to them that these are issues. They’re certainly warnings at minimum. And a CEO can be removed.
Mullvad’s founder has a lot more sway on the company’s path than a french youtuber. Mullvad’s founder isn’t just donating a small donation to the republican party either. He’s, essentially, funding an entire fringe alt right party on his own, one that is in support of ethnic cleansing. That means there is a very high likelihood that the founder shares these beliefs, and even if he doesn’t, by funding a party so aggressively, it provides them with an outsized voice amongst legislation and can lead to direct harm all by using money that you or I gave to them for a product where there are several other choices available to us. Does that make someone fascist, or at least aligned with fascism? Well, supporting a party that believes in ultra-nationalism with social and racial hierarchy/purity…I mean…I can’t honestly say it doesn’t.
So, is ProtonVPN fascist? No Is ProtonVPNs CEO a fascist? I doubt it Is MullvadVPN fascist? No, not yet at least Is Mullvad’s founder a fascist? I’m leaning towards yes Is the Örebro party fascist? Yes. By definition.
Could you take a shot at stating that definition?
And similarly, just to help me ground the way you see things, could you point to a current day example of what you mean by “actual full blown fascism?”