I’ve been hearing about these for a few years now. Huge if they work out at a large scale.
Is this the next big thing? Na. /j
Maybe they will make a potassium battery, K?
Maybe, but I want to see Uranium batteries go mainstream, how 'bout U?
Id prefer francium batteries, fr
Or gallium hydride? GaH.
I was hoping science would’ve gotten us to a tri lanthanside by now https://youtu.be/D8fHatctfRo
Sodium-Ion is already in production at CATL. Been for about half a year if I recall. It’s slightly less dense than LFP but it’s cheaper and promises to get cheaper yet.
You’re right, they were making a pun about sodium’s chemical symbol.
Not who you replied to, but thanks for explaining! I saw the /j but still didn’t get it. I wasn’t a good chemistry student…
The advantage of Sodium -Ion is that it’s cheap, abundant, safe, and can cycle. It’s mainly used where large capacities are needed. So industrial, grid scale, stationary types of storage.
Sodium carbonate is less common than lithium carbonate, but requires less processing
but it’s cheaper
and way less dangerous.
And loads of charge cycles IIRC.
It’s significantly less dense.
It’s close enough to already be in use in some chinese cars. But definitely better for stationary use cases where density matters less.
It is considerably less dense. Those Chinese cars have only 20 kWh batteries
One Chinese car.
deleted by creator
Na.
Sodium, not natrium.
I have a surprise for you…
Sodium is just what those weirdos call Naatrium.
I’ve been doing some looking into sodium ion batteries for the last couple of months and it sounds like it’s going to drastically reduce the price of batteries and sodium ion is more thermally stable and can handle cold temperatures of negative 40 and can handle hot temperatures.
I’m also hearing charge cycle counts around 10,000, which would be something like 20 years worth of battery usage.
The current downside is power density and even that is not terrible as it’s pretty close to what LFP does now and They think they can improve it more in the future.
Sodium ion is already being used in some mass market cars that don’t need an incredible range, but need to be economical.
If it’s cheap and abundant enough you can have overcapacity and it easily lasts 30 years - which apparently is an important breakpoint for infrastructure project funding.
It’s the maintenance period on lots of infrastructure.
What it means isnthe private investors are more likely to bid to build power storage infrastructure for governments because it’s less likely they’ll ever have to change out the cells during the contract.
On the flip side, governments would kinda like them to work for 25 years so they’ll go 50 years without having to buy new cells.
Heck, if energy density is an issue the use this initially for grid storage, home solar, etc. where a larger size isn’t a huge deal. That would increase existing lithium ion supplies for EVs.
The 210Ah sodium-ion cells deliver up to 218Ah of discharge capacity.
WTF does that mean?
Either AI slop, someone fucked up the math for the capacity, or they’ve broken thermodynamics and are pulling power out of the ether.
First is most likely, 3rd is the coolest.
If only my other electronics operated at 104% efficiency.
It’s the world’s worst ZPM
Badly written, i suspect the cells are speecified to have about 210ah and a real test showed 218ah capacity. That would be pretty normal since you always have manufacturing tolerances. But i think in a good article they would have worded it better if thats the case since not all of these batterys will do 218ah.
Possibly the same as 1kg rice ±50g?
The article says that they contain NaCrO₂. That means that, by mass, they are 21% Na, 49% Cr, and 30% O. So I’m curious: why are they called sodium batteries, and not chromium batteries?
By mass it would be mostly graphene or water batteries - like always
Presumably because Na+ ions are the active charge carriers.
Any info about energy density?
According to Wikipedia:
Looks like power to weight it much higher, while energy per volume and energy per mass is comparable to existing lithium ion batteries.
idk about that, the regularly cited reason Na-ion batteries are mainly being looked at for grid storage rather than vehicle applications is their bad Wh/l and W/kg numbers compared to Li-ion. the table in the Na-ion article seems to use “1000W/kg” without a source, and it shows lithium as being about a third of that even though the Li-ion article quotes figures up to 10kW/kg.
seems the editors of the two articles aren’t cross-checking eachother.
Googling says 175 whr/kg for catls sodium car battery that’s already in production cars vs 270 whr/kg for Tesla’s lithium.
Probably numbers for the raw cell though, not the balancing and cooling which could make sodium a bit more competitive.
W/kilo? Isn’t there a h missing or something?
one is energy density, the other is power density.
Aah, makes sense. I have seen soo many people confounding power and energy I thought it was the same here, my excuses.
ion. the table in the Na-ion article seems to use “1000W/kg” without a source, and it shows lithium as being about a third of that even though the Li-ion article quotes figures up to 10kW/kg.
seems the editors of the two articles aren’t cross-checking eachother.
No, it seems like you have zero idea what you are talking about and are confusing W/kg with Wh/kg, which are very different metrics
No, the energy to volume is much less.
See, that’s what I thought, but the wiki article seems to disagree.
Or am I just misreading something?
I think they are testing Unigrid battery model 72173207 (terrible name). That is their 210Ah NCO prismatic cells.
I found this spec sheet. No definitive metrics, but someone else could do the napkin math.
72173207 (terrible name)
That’s my daughter’s name. It was my great grandmother’s name.
Sounds Arabic
We’re Episcopal Numerologists.
CATL’s that went into mass prod sometime ago are 175Wh/kg.
Archive link: https://archive.ph/Xe3BU
https://interestingengineering.com/energy/unigrid-sodium-ion-battery-tech
This page couldn’t load
Reload to try again, or go back.
What is this shit? The page loads perfectly, then goes blank. They just fucking pretend to be broken because of some ad blocker or something. Why is the internet getting worse all the time. I don’t want you fucking layout, share buttons and other garbage.
I got the same error but hit reload and then it loaded fine.
Ah what the heck after the 5th time reloading it did work lol
Idk, sounds like a you problem fam.
Sorry for ranting lol. But it pisses me off especially when it comes from science news. Elsevier and sciencedirect is another service that blocks me, and I’m not even using a VPN or super secure browser.
Soon more and more webpages will only work with “authentic Chrome” or some shit, and block all VPNs. And then soon you’ll have to log into chrome. And that will create a permanent link with your government ID. I’m just tired of this predictable evil trajectory of technology. The internet was supposed to destroy tyranny, not join it!
I hear ya, it is fucking annoying.
Wow, an actual innovation and not just growthfroth.
Yeah batteries have been one of the main areas where the real technological advances have been happening in the past decade. That and photovoltaics
Can we just skip to solid state batteries please?
No one can figure out how to make them without costing a fortune.
To be fair, solid state batteries went from being a pipe dream, to being only possible in perfect laboratory settings, to the current state of very real and possible -just expensive. And it has done all of this in about a decade. Just give it time.
Mercedes will apparently be introducing SS batteries (not to be confused with the SS from Nazi Germany) in 2030. Not too far in the grand scheme of things. Then 2 or 3 years after that every car will have them unless China jumps the gun.
BYD is rumouredo introduce them next year. They filed multiple patents this year and the rumours have been ongoing for years that 2027 is the target year.
You had me at “not to be confused with…” but I’m pretty sure they made the batteries for them too.
Commercialize it? Oh this one could be real
Its already way past its “real” point. Just hasnt really made it to Europe fully. China is already mass producing them for everything.
according to their product page, the charge rate for a single cell seems to max out at 3C, which could be a pretty big obstacle to grid-scale deployment. unless that’s a problem that can be fixed with a different arrangement; i’m not too up on how to build batteries.
This wouldn’t be an obstacle for grid, only for mobile/moving applications.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
Do you think this battery tech will be applied to portable power tools?
Nope. Too heavy for the power capacity.
While I get that this is the narrative, people are overstating this case. High end sodium batteries have a similar energy density range to lower end lithium batteries (~150-175 wh/kg). This idea that people wouldn’t buy a battery that is cheaper, safer, and has a much longer cycle life if it weighs a bit more or only runs 80% as long between the faster charges is puzzling at best.
They have less density than Li ion because of their honeycomb structure. They may have the same output per weight, but they have more volume.
Afaik they are mostly intended for large scale grid storage where weight doesn’t matter. Or even efficiency, you can just add more super cheap solar panels. Their biggest advantage is longer lifespan though that makes them viable as a infrastructure project. Price and longevity is really all that matters for grid storage.
So they are a bit heavier than lithium ion batteries but could still work for many applications. Could be great for a solar powered catamaran for example. They are I think safer too.
PS: Actually I was thinking off the “sodium iron pyrophosphate (NFPP)” battery from CATL (see this video), but I think they are comparable.
